We can take it to the bank. It makes us feel better today. Robb 43m 17s : And just trying to put on a, you know, five more pounds of muscle mass.
Brad 43m 22s : This is, this is pretty heavy, man. Robb 43m 47s : Yeah. I mean, it, it, it, it, I, I only have remarkably unpopular person, most places.
Robb 44m 3s : And again, I could be wrong maybe times of fasting and low protein is somehow going to lead to both longer life and a higher quality of life. And also again, like going back to like the blue zones story, most of that is just an outright lie. So, yeah. Brad 45m 2s : Yeah. You got to find out, we got to find a carnivore ish blue zone, you know, and then put it up there to just throw the diet thing into the proper context rather than, I mean, it seems to me, most people associate blue zones with like the diet part of the blue zones rather than everything else.
Robb 45m 54s : Yeah. And then you have these genetically effectively identical, you know, family members that have moved into more westernized situations and they eat a very starch based, more processed carbohydrate diet. Robb 46m 38s : And the free-living Turkana are, are remarkably healthy, effectively devoid of chronic degenerative disease. And then these folks that even a half a generation in, like they were, they were born in pastoralists Lifeway, but then move to the city.
They are crushed by these chronic degenerative diseases. So we do have some natural experiments out there that, that look even, even closer along that, that more carnivores or more, more, you know, kind of kind of animal products, centric kind of angle.
Robb 47m 21s : Ages ago, it struck me that the ability to eat grains, legumes, tubers, what have you was wholly dependent on just getting enough animal products, protect you from those other foods like you to, to basically offset like nutrient deficiencies and get enough of whatever the vital nutrients are in the animal products.
And it occurred to me, but I never really articulated it until, you know, noodling on the opposite side of this thing, looking at it from kind of the more carnivore perspective.
Brad 47m 57s : Cool. So back to the optimal decision-making of what, when, how much to eat in the diet, and this might be a good segue into why or to eat. Cause you talk about appetite. So maybe we can tread down that path a little bit and ask, is the appetite going to be a great regulator of your caloric intake? And then my add on to that question is when I go into that low carb realm, I noticed that my appetite is much more stable.
Brad 48m 37s : So am I being stupid by not eating? Robb 48m 53s : Yeah. Really good questions. So many times during my first interview with him when we were writing the Keto Reset Diet.
And there is kind of an interesting inflection point with this where a significant amount of protein is highly satiating. If you eat more protein, you actually get more stimulation of the appetite because it, at some point we need either carbohydrate or fat as a co-factor to deal with protein.
This is the whole rabbit starvation, you know, kind of phenomenon. But like you have to really try to kind of, kind of get to that. Robb 51m 8s : I consistently see people with terrible body composition and they overeat because this protein leverage hypothesis suggests that all organisms eat to a protein minimum. And therefore more, generally more nutritious.
Nutrients tend to be more densely associated with protein, rich foods. And so any organism you care to look at, they tend to favor more protein, dense sources of nutrition because they get more broad nutrition in that context.
They need to eat more protein, you know? Robb 53m 32s : And it, it gooses fat adaptation and whatnot, but I mean, how many years have you eaten pretty low carb? Brad 53m 41s : Twelve. Comparison to massively high carb years before that. And training too much and all those, you know, different. Brad 54m 5s : 55 Robb 54m 6s : So in my mind for us, like that performance is important and everything, but, but a key part of that performance is maintaining that muscle mass, you know, and, and so in my mind that really kind of shifts some orientation towards yay, get that hard workout, get those four medic stress elements from being keto adapted from doing some fasted training and then eat.
Robb 55m 1s : Like, are there ups obvious upsides? Are there any obvious downsides? And, and kinda kind of tinker with that. How much more are you going to get out of it?
You know, pushing that, that recovery phase, you know, out. And it is some of the critics of upstate like keto and low carb. So training is a stressor. Low carb can be a stressor. Fasting can absolutely be a stressor. How many of those things do we want to stack and daisy chain together, you know? Brad 55m 40s : Cold water plunge. I forgot that too. Robb 55m 43s : Yeah. It has to be 48 degrees.
You can die pretty goddamn quickly in 70 degree water. So this is something that will kill you in a matter of an hour or two, if you are stuck in it. But man, take some baby steps on that. Like folks who are in such a ridiculous hurry to try to get somewhere with this.
When, you know, 70 degree water is cold, it will kill you if you stay in it long enough. And it absolutely is good enough for like a hormetic stress response. I know that feeling. Those things, there were dose response curves really do matter, you know? Llike being in 48 degree, water is miserable for me. Like I absolutely hate it.
I just detest it. Whereas if I do three minutes in 68 or 65 degree water, I feel great. And I feel great the whole day. Brad 58m 43s : Yeah. Kelly Starrett. And he said, it is as much nutritious food as you can, until you start adding body fats.
And that makes so much sense. And, you know, for most people with a, with a desire to drop that frustrating excess body fat, then you can try your fasting and do all those things. Brad 59m 27s : But yeah. Jeez, Robb, this has been pretty wild times. I want to plug Sacred Cow and I guess we can just give a little tidbit about the, the film and the book and then people can, can dive in for further details. Robb 59m 44s : Yeah. So Diana Rogers and I worked for five years, four and a half, five years on Sacred Cow, the book and film, and it tackles the ethical environmental and ethical environmental and health considerations of a meat inclusive food system.
So we, we try to take on some of the things like meat meat gives you cancer. Meat disproportionately produces greenhouse gases. Producing meat disproportionately uses resources. And so it takes a lot of effort to unpack and unwind all these things. You know, I would really encourage people to get in and actually vet the material that we cite in there. But this is possibly a decent example of us trying to be ethical and to try to do the very best job that we could.
When we looked at the question of is pastured meat, more nutritious than conventional meat? We looked and looked and looked and looked, and we looked at every scrap of data we could find.
And we, we had an independent party come man, and look at you, go and answer this question. Robb 1h 1m 8s : We paid this person to go do this independently. Now there is a massive difference nutritionally in dairy and eggs in wild caught versus pharmacy food. And people will get all for clamped over differences in Omega-3 content of, of pastured versus conventional meat. It is the long and short of that.
Now there are amazing reasons why pasturing or, or holistic management of grazing animals is environmentally superior. It is ethically superior, but you cannot make a scientific case that it is nutritionally superior.
And again, pastured dairy is shockingly more nutritious than conventional dairy pasture eggs, same deal and wild caught fish, same deal. But one more talk than about beef, lamb, et cetera. Robb 1h 2m 48s : Like, did you spend five years reading? Well, no, this guy said something.
And like, honestly, we considered just the lying about this. Robb 1h 3m 29s : They could easily prove that that point is not true. And then it calls into question every other thing that we, we perhaps got accurate net things.
So we really did the best job that we could to, to, to be correct in this. Cause we, we wrote it as like the, the absolute manifesto response to like Gamechangers and Cowspiracy and all the rest of that. And I wish that that was the case, but it just is not with the current data that we have. Brad 1h 4m 51s : Wow. What a, what an interesting strategy to ignore it. Next question. Robb 1h 5m 13s : Yeah. There is a little bit of an asymmetric warfare though, and that, you know, big name movie producers are backing these things.
Netflix sayings, the, the film Sacred Cow, which, which is a companion to the, to the book. We Diana got it to the highest tier of leadership at Netflix and everybody below that was incredibly excited about the film. It hit that upper tier of leadership, and then they went dark on us and never said another thing.
Robb 1h 6m 3s : People are all very, very, very pro vegan. They totally have the upper hand with everything currently. And so some upstart film and book that really has the right of things.
Oh yeah. By all means, ignore it. Robb 1h 6m 47s : So we do have a very different battle to fight there Brad 1h 6m 55s : Just to call attention. Yeah, yeah, Robb 1h 6m 57s : yeah. Brad 1h 6m 57s : Oh man, give me the rationale. Robb 1h 7m 21s : Yeah. Elements kind of an interesting story. Pretty much on the keto side have generally done well with it.
But I noticed that I did pretty well with like gymnastics and weightlifting, but things kind of high motor activities, Brazilian jujitsu, you know, legit intervals.
I really struggled on it. And my solution with that was re-introducing some carbs. I had GI problems and I was kind of back and forth on this stuff. And it was just a constant bugger for me. Robb 1h 8m 6s : They found a keto gains, great guys. Like they, they just have a huge community and do really work. But I started hanging out with them.
What else do I need to do? And I was like, Oh no, no, no. I salt my food. Robb 1h 8m 50s : And so a good year went by and they patiently were waiting for me to have my breaking point.
I got her and we walked to the wash rack to tack up. Then I had a great lesson and walked back to my car carrying my saddle. After a riding lesson I would normally pay for parking in the front of the building. Nicki: Tearing up? Robb: No. Not just her, but all of the people that are making these changes. This is life changing stuff and the morbidity and mortality in things like rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis are shocking to see nothing of the just the loss of quality of life.
Robb: This is why we keep beating this drum, because not enough people, not enough practitioners, not enough information is out there yet to just give people the option. If you want to change, here is something you can try. Nicki: Yep, so anyway. Just wanted to share those few highlights from this past reset. We do have another one starting coming up in April. I think that was all that I had for my preamble, hubs.
So you can jump into your news topic. Robb: News topic is a piece, a giant solar farm sounds perfect, right? It creates a much higher heat albedo, which is basically that it pulls more heat into the area and so the net effect on climate change could end up being even worse than the amount of productivity that you get out of the solar panels. You can only stuff so many electrons in so many places. Robb: Since we just went through the snowpocalypse here in Texas, a couple of points here.
By extreme, we will have higher highs and lower lows and it will happen in places that we have not really seen that, which is this coldest weather I believe ever recorded in Texas, or at least in the last 35 plus years or what have you. Robb: So yeah, a bunch of wind turbines that froze in Texas and other places, you have solar panels that were covered in six inches to a foot of snow in Texas and other places. Another piece to is that these systems are shockingly complex.
When you start trying to figure out the total heat mapping of a planet and what one move does versus another, just all of the blacktop roadways that we have. This is one of the reasons why cities tend to be warmer than rural areas is that the heat island that is created around these.
Robb: A recommendation that has been made is to have a lower albedo, a different color and different material to the roadways which could be a great idea. What you need to look into with that is, what is the energy input of these other ideas? The main point here is that the problem that I have with so much of this stuff is that super broad reaching, simplistic recommendations are being made for systems that are just completely beyond our understanding.
Modern monetary theory has completely solved this thing. That is absolute bullshit. Nicki: Question. Robb: … discuss and hash this stuff out. As it is right now, we have potentially billions of eyeballs, billions of brains looking at this information and kicking around ideas, putting out hypotheses, that we could then test and tinker with and model and explore.
Robb: Again, I will go out on a limb and say that our solutions to climate change and food production and a host of other issues that we face, need to be much more local and regional in nature. I think that that could be absolutely disastrous. It reminds me of Grass World is Sacred Cow-.
Nicki: Sacred Cow. Robb is my hero, mine and maybe six other listeners. Keep up the salty talk. Robb: Super cool. Then you tweak one variable and your production changes, shockingly, you-. Nicki: I mean I had to exclusively pump with Zoe because I had a really hard time getting her to latch. I ended up just exclusively pumping for-. Robb: Nine months. Nicki: It was 11 months, and then I started having some other issues but if I had only known the sodium piece because you get desperate.
Robb: Indeed, it is. Nicki: … a baby. So anyway, I thought that was fun to share. Also wanted to let everybody know that LMNT has extended the free plus shipping offer, and the sample pack now includes all of our flavors. Robb: Cool. Our first one is from Leslie and she wants to know how much protein can one absorb per meal? Avid podcast listeners and book buyer, I love all of yours.
Searching tells me that body builders think they can only absorb 30 grams of protein per meal. I eat berries, collagen, protein power, which is grass-fed, goat kefir and powdered multivitamins mixed together, along with four ounces of meat and two eggs for breakfast around AM.
I could stand to lose a few pounds, but at five foot four and pounds, at my age I am okay but I would like more muscle or at least not to lose anymore. Robb: So this… man, this one has been unpacked a lot. There have been some great analysis on this. We can absorb a remarkable amount. Again, are we talking about a small female, a large male?
A bunch of different variables there. Robb: There is a reality though that the frequency of protein eating does matter from an anabolic perspective. So the body builders scene recommending four to six small meals a day and spaced out, probably is optimum for muscle mass gain.
Not everybody does it, other people are successful on less frequent feeding schedules but there is an anabolic stimulus each time you consume a decent wack of protein. Typically, above about 25 grams of protein to get enough leucine and branched-chain amino acids to stimulate mTOR and get this anabolic effect.
Robb: I think two meals a day is right at that bottom end for most people. It lowers your cardiovascular disease risk, it lowers your neurodegenerative risk. But in general, the things that go into effective aging from a muscle mass perspective support everything else.
Well, are you sleeping well? Is your glycemic load appropriate? Are you getting adequate nutrition and what not? On non-training days, maybe just stick with your two meals but if we see anything, like a reset, body composition shifts, magic just happens when people get adequate protein. Nicki: Protein powder. Robb: … protein powders. The collagen, although helpful, cannot count in your protein total.
Nicki: Leslie. Nicki: Grass-fed protein powder. So I would recommend more protein that you chew, definitely on training days a third meal, a snack or whatever it could be. Mainly protein or all protein or protein and some veggies if you want to do it, but I would lean that way for sure.
Nicki: Okay, our next question is from Matt on thru-hiking, backpacking, and the paleo, keto diet. These past couple years I have gotten more into thru-hiking and backpacking and have been planning some longer hikes and a longterm goal of doing the entire Appalachian trail.
Nicki: My question is, to your knowledge, is there anyone developing programs or templates on planning long hikes, primarily utilizing ketogenic and paleo foods? Everywhere you look when planning thru-hikes, the advice is largely the same. Granola, oatmeal, instant mashed potatoes, and candy for energy, but it seems obvious that six months on a trail requires primarily oxidative phosphorylation and ketogenic diet or paleo seems to be an obvious choice.
With as many ultra runners and endurance athletes beginning to tout the benefits of keto, I am wondering if there are any thru-hikers doing the same thing. Seems like it could be an interesting topic.
Went paleo, keto for some health related reasons, found that she was lighter, liked the endurance characteristics that all of this provided her. I forget what the difference was but I want to say that for a given period of time, whether it was a week or 10 days or two weeks, she was five pounds, 10 pounds lighter in her pack than what she was previously.
Basically doing the bare minimum of protein and then different sources of fat. She would put in a little bit of extra variety because it gets pretty monotonous in the back woods just eating exactly the same thing, but. Robb: Everybody bemoans the fact that fat has nine calories per gram, relative to carbohydrate, which has four. So from a packing perspective, that seems pretty obvious. Things like pemmican can be cool where you put a little bit ground nuts and stuff like that.
So you just got a little bit of matrix in there for some mouth feel because I can eat a lot of fat but… also a lot of people with rendered fat, just liquid fats, they will get the whoosh effect from just eating spoonfuls of fat. So check out… that was episode-. Nicki: Nine-. Robb: Was it-. Nicki: Salty Talk episode Robb: 19, okay. Nicki: Yep. Then also Matt, if you do, we want to hear how it goes when you do your-. Robb: That would be cool.
Nicki: … entire Appalachian trail. That would be awesome. Robb: It sounds like there might be an opportunity to develop exactly these things, yeah. Nicki: Yep, okay we have a question from Kyle on the Keto Master class and if he should recalculate his macros.
I am into my fourth week and feel and doing relatively well. Because your recycling, short showers are less emissions are dwarfd by the impact you would make by cutting down your animal protein consumption. Then where do elefants, cows, gorilas and all the other plant eating mammals out there get get their protein if they only eat plants, veggies and fruits?????????????????? This is why we are omnivores. Cows eat grass. If I fed my child only grass, I would go to jail — because they would starve, because we can not eat grass.
But as you say, only you have a brain and the rest of us meat eaters do not. Thanks for the laugh! Sorry, had to chime in. Cows do not just eat grass. Grass fed are far and few between when compared to the industry as a whole.
Our grain fed livestock in THIS nation, are not only ingesting poor quality ingredients, they are also becoming cannibals through no fault of their own. For example to make 1lb of beef requires about 32kw of energy, and ONE cattle will consume about 1, gallons of water in its short life. As just morales, a slaughter and processing plant, out here processes cattle per hour, or 14, per day!!!
We now have twice as many cattle in the world than people!!! Water supplies are dwindling worldwide and many people in other nations die daily because of not having clean drinking water.. Lastly, we do not need an entirely meat based protein diet.
That is a farse!! There are several complete plant proteins that are found in nature. Claudia, How will you feed 7 billion people with vegetables? It summarizes the latest research regarding human protein requirements. There is also the theory that alkaline minerals like potassium, magnesium, calcium, sodium, can help the body «spare» protein while phosphorus may do the opposite.
Loren Cordain would suggest this, but also Ray Peat, and he explains how below. But of course it depens on the type of protein. Does it come from organ meats or egg yolks? Or soybeans and grains? What is the amino acid profile? Does the diet supply enough taurine which like choline can help prevent fatty liver and also likely as choline also spare protein etc etc. To put it short: a grain based diet may increase protein requirement high phosphorus, low potassium , while a diet where the carbohydrates comes from tubers, fruits, vegetables, will reduce protein requirement.
How realistic do you think it is to consume alkalizing materials and how that would affect the overall acid base balance when the stomach is so acidic. The fruit and vegetable and milk people do.
I think I got it messed up in closure…. Alright, how realistic do you think it is to consume. RP: I think the main function is sparing protein that you would use for the kidneys to help to regulate the minerals. And if during that fast if you just drink minerals — salt water, baking soda, potassium, magnesium and calcium — any of the alkaline minerals will radically spare the amount of protein that you would be consuming and wasting. If the both of us ate g protein each day, she may feel sick trying to do so, and I may lose more LBM than I could have.
I am NOT recommending a blanket amount. I have not seen 0. You arriving at g of protein for yourself sounds like a reasonable amount based on your weight, or you could go a bit higher. Some people do better ketogenic, which would be less protein. As a lb guy I wish I could take more issue with you calling me odd but I am. This is a fat fat country. That said thanks for the info. I often end up around grams a day and that seems to match really well with how much you found sensible.
I looked at the protein in different animal and plant-based foods and wrote this. This is just a fact. Meat is in fact unhealthy especially processed and red meat due to the amount of carcinogens present in the meat. A plant based diet is healthier. Plants,nuts etc. Why do we have to cook it?
And the daily protein suggestion is legit even if you excessive heavily. You might need more than 1g per lbs in some cases Bodybuilders that are on Testosteron. All in all you can get all your proteins from plant based food. My break fast shake consists of 2 bananas, raw kale, chia seeds, oat meal, soy milk and almonds which equals roughly around kcal and g protein.
I easily hit g of protein with a vegan diet. You can get protein from everywhere and not just meat. That applies to vitamins as well. Who says we need all of this protein?
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